Science Education Act provides plenty of reasons to be scared: James Gill

Marconius wrote:I guess I am more like you than we realize.

Dude, your'e starting to scare me now :-P

Miles1 wrote:

Marconius wrote:I guess I am more like you than we realize.

Dude, your'e starting to scare me now :-P

You scared!?!?!?!?!

I ain't slept since I typed that :-D

Bryant wrote:

Here is a scenario for you. Little Johny lives in a religious home in a religious community. Little Johny's high school biology teacher is required by law to place the scientific theory of evolution side by side with the Christian concept of creationism and examine the strengths and weaknesses of both ideas. The biology teacher, who has a strong background in science, pokes countless holes in the Christian story and shows the biblical account to be false. What happens then?

If that happened, then it shows the biology teacher (who shouldnt be teaching religion in the first place, but rather "biology"), is totally inadequate to the task of teaching the Christian concept.

If we MUST teach creationism alongside Darwinism, in public schools, at least pony up the funds to hire both a biology teacher AND a Bible teacher...someone who has been taught how to teach the Christian concept of creationism. At least pretend to be objective and unbiased about the subjects. Thats the only fair way to do it.

Personally I really dont know that we ought to force teachers to teach religion in public schools at all. Go ahead and teach Evolution as long as it is presented as a scientific "theory"...which it is. And while we're at it, these same schools shouldnt persecute Christians by expelling them for wearing religious t shirts or jewelry, or preventing them from having religious extra-curricular clubs.

Bryant wrote:

Pun wrote:Idk, ive always felt that since there is no hard science behind creationism, that it shouldn't be taught as "science." With that said however, i think the lefts urge to completely remove religion from schools, has left a great need for theology classes, oh no! That could lead to real critical thinking and possible offenses to just about all faiths and atheists alike lol. Heaven for if we were to have an open dialogue in this country anymore, rather than just an ordained monologue of ideas.

Go for it. Teach it as philosophy or comparative religion. So long as you aren't preaching to the kids (which isn't what your proposal sounds like), I think you would be stunned by how much support you would get out of both the left and the atheist/agnostic crowds.

Well, you make it an elective, rather than mandatory. But unfortunatey, the ACLU threatens to sue everytime this is attempted.

Bryant wrote:

If you want any meaningful amount of freedom, government has to be completely divorced from religion. What is more dangerous to liberty than having the government tell you what you can think, to threaten you with holy punishment for blasphemy? A free man has the right to choose to lead such a life; however if you give the church the keys to government, if you take away the choice to believe or reject, we loose everything.

Amen bro! This is exactly what the 1st amendment is all about.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This amendment is designed to protect both the unreligious and the religious. The government will not establish a state religion, or force people to be a certain faith (Like they did in merry old England). This also prevents the government from having an inquisition and persecuting people of other (or no) faith.

But some groups like the ACLU and some activist judges, principals and teachers have taken this to mean that no displays of religion mayever be shown on government property. (ie...a kid cant wear a cross, or Christian t shirt, or say a prayer on his won, etc). Many times kids in school who have done this have been expelled. In other words the government IS getting involved.

I hear now they are even expelling kids who wear NRA t shirts or shirts that say "support the troops" or little 1st graders playing cops and robbers.

If the goverment took your suggestion though...it would not get involved.

I would just like to know how teaching exclusively the christian concept of creationism could ever be constitutional?

It really isnt Constitutional I guess. But prohibiting the free exercise thereof, is UN-constitutional, at least if it happens in a publis state-run school.

Dennis324 wrote:

But some groups like the ACLU and some activist judges, principals and teachers have taken this to mean that no displays of religion mayever be shown on government property. (ie...a kid cant wear a cross, or Christian t shirt, or say a prayer on his won, etc). Many times kids in school who have done this have been expelled. In other words the government IS getting involved.

I hear now they are even expelling kids who wear NRA t shirts or shirts that say "support the troops" or little 1st graders playing cops and robbers.

If the goverment took your suggestion though...it would not get involved.

I've not really heard of schools prohibiting students from displaying their religious beliefs, not to mention taking disciplinary action for doing so. Certainly, I would not condone such prohibitions. Most high schools have groups of students who gather near the flag pole at the beginning of each day and say a prayer. I am 100% fine with that so long as its clear that its a student's decision to be there and is in no way encouraged/discouraged by the school. Things like what happened in Mississippi the other week, where students were forced to attend a Christian revival congregation held on campus during school, is totally unacceptable.

Texas City student banned from wearing cross necklace

Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary

Christian student suspended for sharing faith

You probably wont hear any of this stuff on CNN or NBC or the like. But its happening.

Dennis324 wrote:Texas City student banned from wearing cross necklace

Student Suspended for Wearing Rosary

Christian student suspended for sharing faith

You probably wont hear any of this stuff on CNN or NBC or the like. But its happening.

The schools in Illinois and Texas appear to have been in the wrong. I do not support their suppression of students reasonable expressions of faith.

The San Diego case sounds much more suspect. Upon looking into the case, the student was suspended from a continuation school for repeated disruptions. The student claimed that he was also disciplined for bringing a bible to school, however the school disputed that allegation. It sounds like this kid was a screw up with self control issues. My wife has a few of those in her class (not that she would ever call them that, I'm a bit less forgiving). The student was suing the school, claiming his first, fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendment rights were violates. The suit was supposed to have been filed in 2011, however I couldn't find anything discussing what became of it. From whats provided, it sounds like the kid was trying to preach in the middle of class, and after being warned refused to stop. Thats valid grounds for suspension.

I think your accusations toward the main stream media and the ACLU are funny in light of this case, as the ACLU stated if the student's claims were correct, they believe there would have been serious first amendment violations (they did not have access to the facts of the case as they were not consulted, thus could only comment based off the accusations). FOX News ran a story on this on their website called "Student Punished for Talking About God," in which they try to paint the kid as a saint. FOX even went so far as to change the name of the high school to conceal the fact that he was a student at a continuation school.

I dunno about that last part. But you posted something earlier that I think is good. You wrote "Things like what happened in Mississippi the other week, where students were forced to attend a Christian revival congregation held on campus during school, is totally unacceptable."

I didnt hear that but agree 100%. Thats wrong and something should be done (unless it was at a private Christian academy). But in the same token, I think its unacceptable to force young girls to ask Classmates for ‘Lesbian Kiss’ During Anti-Bullying Presentation. Yes...this actually happened at Linden Avenue Middle School in Red Hook, New York. During the workshop for girls, the 13 and 14-year-olds were told to ask one another for a kiss. They were also taught words such as “pansexual” and “genderqueer.”




"there's a groups of adults who are trying to superimpose their ideology on some children"...

Dont tell me this isnt happening in our schools. Coz it is. And its wrong to indoctrinate kids like this. They're trying to mainstream homosexuality and that goes against all 3 of the major world's religions teachings.

Dennis324 wrote:I dunno about that last part. But you posted something earlier that I think is good. You wrote "Things like what happened in Mississippi the other week, where students were forced to attend a Christian revival congregation held on campus during school, is totally unacceptable."

I didnt hear that but agree 100%. Thats wrong and something should be done (unless it was at a private Christian academy). But in the same token, I think its unacceptable to force young girls to ask Classmates for ‘Lesbian Kiss’ During Anti-Bullying Presentation. Yes...this actually happened at Linden Avenue Middle School in Red Hook, New York. During the workshop for girls, the 13 and 14-year-olds were told to ask one another for a kiss. They were also taught words such as “pansexual” and “genderqueer.”




"there's a groups of adults who are trying to superimpose their ideology on some children"...

Dont tell me this isnt happening in our schools. Coz it is. And its wrong to indoctrinate kids like this. They're trying to mainstream homosexuality and that goes against all 3 of the major world's religions teachings.

The first video didn't work for me. I've already refuted the 'lesbian kiss' myth in another thread (part of an exchange with Marc).

Local news coverage of the Mississippi incident, both sides

Schools have long engaged in anti-bullying activities and have a vested interest in mitigating activities that could result in the generation of a threatening educational environment. Homosexuals are one of the most bullied groups, and corrosively that group has some of the highest suicide rates. Parents were not effective in counteracting bullying (hell, many of the bully's parents were once bullys themselves).

I used to get picked on in elementary school and it made life hell. The school principle was afraid of the head of the group of bullys mom (nasty lady), and if anyone were to get in trouble for an incident it was me, the victim. I was eventually able to escape the abuse by hanging out with a large group of friends (the bullys were rally cowards and wouldn't try anything unless they outnumbered their target). Finally I got the head of the group alone and beat the living shit out of him, which ended my trouble with that group. Unfortunately he and his cronies just went and found someone else to take it out on. I was able to change how I was treated by changing what the low lives had a problem with, I was once weak and then I toughened up. Homosexuals don't have the benefit of being able to change why they are hated, why they are abused. We have a culture in this country, one you are supporting, that says its ok to bully this group. This is what these kinds of activities are trying to change. They're trying to teach students that homosexuals are not freaks and that its not OK to abuse them physically or verbally.

Bryant wrote:
The first video didn't work for me. I've already refuted the 'lesbian kiss' myth in another thread (part of an exchange with Marc).

I dont read or respond to his stuff, so I wouldn't know what you said to him. The only way I would know what he posts is if one of you quotes him. But this event did take place.

Bryant wrote:Local news coverage of the Mississippi incident, both sides

Schools have long engaged in anti-bullying activities and have a vested interest in mitigating activities that could result in the generation of a threatening educational environment. Homosexuals are one of the most bullied groups, and corrosively that group has some of the highest suicide rates. Parents were not effective in counteracting bullying (hell, many of the bully's parents were once bullys themselves).

Agreed.

Bryant wrote:I used to get picked on in elementary school and it made life hell. The school principle was afraid of the head of the group of bullys mom (nasty lady), and if anyone were to get in trouble for an incident it was me, the victim. I was eventually able to escape the abuse by hanging out with a large group of friends (the bullys were rally cowards and wouldn't try anything unless they outnumbered their target). Finally I got the head of the group alone and beat the living shit out of him, which ended my trouble with that group. Unfortunately he and his cronies just went and found someone else to take it out on. I was able to change how I was treated by changing what the low lives had a problem with, I was once weak and then I toughened up. Homosexuals don't have the benefit of being able to change why they are hated, why they are abused. We have a culture in this country, one you are supporting, that says its ok to bully this group. This is what these kinds of activities are trying to change. They're trying to teach students that homosexuals are not freaks and that its not OK to abuse them physically or verbally.

I got picked on a lot too. I started school earlier than the other in my class and was smaller than everyone else. (I'm the biggest our of my class today though. Funny how that worked out. But the bullying didn't really end until we all got old enough to start chasing girls. The bullies paid more attention to the girls at that point, as did I.

Look, I'm not saying that gays should be picked on. No one should. I'm just agreeing with you that students shouldn't be forced to worship or attend religious events. At the same time, students (especially little kids) shouldn't be forced to do what these little girls had to do. The gay agenda IS active and in our schools.

Ok, I read that article you linked. In this case it probably shouldn't matter that the event was student-led and organized. It shouldn't have been allowed. Most student groups have a teacher as a sponsor and they usually have some oversight by a faculty member. Imo, the principal and school board need to change their policy of making these assemblies mandatory. Actually they should never have allowed this speaker to come to the campus. I think you and I agree pretty much on how this was wrong.