The GOP’s ‘Europe’ is a land of make-believe

The GOP’s ‘Europe’ is a land of make-believe
The Washington Post
Martin Klingst is Washington bureau chief of the weekly German newspaper Die Zeit.

Lately it seems that not a day goes by without a Republican presidential candidate portraying Europe as a socialist nightmare. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum paint a picture of the Old World as unfree, strangulated by bureaucratic and inefficient welfare systems, and unable to reform and modernize. To these Republicans, Europe seems to be the antipode to everything America is meant to be.

I understand that stump speeches are coarse and that, to Republican candidates, Europe must be bad because President Obama occasionally praises some of its achievements, such as universal health care or the “green” revolution.

I also know there is an American tradition of holding up the Old World as an example of all that is wrong and corrupt. There is, unfortunately, a more recent European custom of blaming the United States for all that is perverse and profane. Moreover, there are good reasons to worry about Europe’s fiscal calamities, which stem in part from the unaffordable benefits for its citizens. It is understandable that some on this side of the Atlantic fear that the European debt crisis could drag the slowly recovering U.S. economy under.

But when Romney, Gingrich and Santorum warn about “socialist Europe,” they sound as though they are talking about the Soviet empire, which vanished long ago. Europe is the European Union, a modern entity of 27 democratic countries that, despite many commonalities, greatly differ in history, culture, language, sociology and politics. Europe is difficult to comprehend, but viewing it through a single lens is like calling the United States a Third World nation because there are very poor areas in the South where some people live in shacks or have little access to health care or where some schools are corridors of shame.

My problem as a European living in the United States is that it is not Joe the Plumber who is bashing Europe but three longtime politicians who want to be president — people who should know better. Wasn’t Mitt Romney a missionary in France? Hasn’t he spoken fluent French since the late 1960s? I do not recall any important European politician who ran for prime minister or president and pilloried the United States in the same manner. Even when German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder came out against the imminent Iraq war before seeking reelection in 2002, the rhetoric was muted in comparison.

It is not necessary here to define socialism or to detail the many distinctions between a state-run economy and a social democracy based on a ­free-market system. But those who seek to be president of a global superpower — and may perhaps one day sit at a table with leaders of the Old World — should know a few things:

All 27 E.U. members believe, more or less, in mandatory health-care insurance and public education. They believe that government should offer a helping hand to struggling businesses and people during economic downturns. That is why we pay high taxes. It is also true that a number of E.U. countries have irresponsibly expanded their welfare systems and can no longer afford their bills.

But some countries have carried out necessary economic reforms, engineered their comeback and managed the storm of the Great Recession quite well. To some extent they can now present better results than the United States. Germany, for example, raised its retirement age to 67 and drastically reformed its social safety net, lowering labor costs to businesses. Thanks to government subsidies, German enterprises were able to keep their skilled workers employed during the recession. When business picked up again, the labor force was in place and the economy more competitive. Unemployment is at a 20-year low of about 6 percent.

Several European states run their mandatory health-care systems more efficiently and at lower cost than the United States while guaranteeing every citizen access to affordable and up-to-date services. The population’s health remains an important economic factor. Moreover, while the national debt is disastrous in Greece or Italy, debt remains at a much more responsible level in Germany, Denmark and Sweden.

Romney pointed out in New Hampshire last month that, despite the economic downturn, the average U.S. worker still takes home a bigger monthly paycheck than the average European (and even the average German, who makes more than, say, Romanians). That’s true, but the comparison doesn’t take into account the much greater wealth gap in the United States nor the fact that Americans have to spend larger portions of their income on medical care and education.

A college education is still free in most Old World countries and produces generally better results than in the United States. The Program for International Student Assessment study by the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, released in December, shows that high school students in a number of E.U. countries scored better in reading, math and science than their U.S. counterparts. Another OECD report shows that it is much easier for Germans, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Spaniards to climb the socioeconomic ladder than Americans. That’s a stark reversal from the time when greater social mobility was a main reason so many Europeans flocked to the land of opportunity.

Comparing data across societies is risky because cultural and social differences may not be reflected. Yes, pendulums swing. But framing Europe simply as inflexible and outdated, or backward and socialistic, is shortsightedand wrong. Romney, Gingrich and Santorum should know as well as anyone that the globe is no longer flat.

Bryant wrote:
I also know there is an American tradition of holding up the Old World as an example of all that is wrong and corrupt. There is, unfortunately, a more recent European custom of blaming the United States for all that is perverse and profane.

I thought this was a funny quote. All my like I'd heard that Europeans think we're prudish bible-thumping puritans. Lol!

Bryant wrote:
Moreover, there are good reasons to worry about Europe’s fiscal calamities, which stem in part from the unaffordable benefits for its citizens. It is understandable that some on this side of the Atlantic fear that the European debt crisis could drag the slowly recovering U.S. economy under.

Exactly. He hit the nail on the head with this quote. This is pretty much what we Conservatives worry about.

Bryant wrote:But when Romney, Gingrich and Santorum warn about “socialist Europe,” they sound as though they are talking about the Soviet empire, which vanished long ago.

This is the confusing bit. The author just got finished making the case that we're worried about the economical impact of following in Europe's footsteps, and then he begins to demonize Conservatives by implying that we see Europe as another Soviet Union. He's writing this article for a German Newspaper, so it makes me think that his demonizing of American conservatives is intentional.

You see...Europe fell in love with Obama when he was elected. I daresay they still love him. And for some reason, many in Europe love to insert themselves into our politics. OTOH, most of us on this side of the pond worry little about who the next PM of whatever will be. Yeah, we watch, but if the left wing liberal is elected, you dont see us freaking out about it. And if another Margarete Thatcher or Winston Churchill were elected, I doubt most of us would take to the streets and cheer.

For some reason Europeans see American politics as almost a spectator sport.

Bryant wrote:
It is not necessary here to define socialism or to detail the many distinctions between a state-run economy and a social democracy based on a ­free-market system. But those who seek to be president of a global superpower — and may perhaps one day sit at a table with leaders of the Old World — should know a few things:

All 27 E.U. members believe, more or less, in mandatory health-care insurance and public education. They believe that government should offer a helping hand to struggling businesses and people during economic downturns. That is why we pay high taxes. It is also true that a number of E.U. countries have irresponsibly expanded their welfare systems and can no longer afford their bills.

And therein lies the differences between the US and Europe. It has nothing to do with the old Soviet-Union that murdered millions, sent millions more to the Gulag and sought to spread communism across the world. (See how the author has tried to twist things?). It has to do with the very real very hard-core belief in American style capitalism vs European style socialism. Yes, we know that all 27 EU members are socialist states. Conservatives, for the most part, dont want that and see Capitalism as the best way to give all Americans the opportunity to achieve success. While we do believe in a safety net to help folks who need help, we see socialism as almost an addictive drug that drags us down.

We believe that one big part of the global economic problem is that governments have offered so many social ...perks...and they (we) can no longer afford it. Therefore the answer always seems to be raise their taxes (rather than reduce their benefits). In short, with the European style, we would wind up paying more...for less. Our taxes would be raised, and it will become too costly to start new businesses and create new jobs. Thus because of this, many, like myself, are sitting home jobless. So what do we do? We apply for govt programs just to survive and we are no longer paying into the tax system. How is a nation to survive this way? Eventually with everyone on the govt dole, no one will be there to pay taxes...because we've taxed the people to death.

My problem with the dole is that it doesn't do anything other than keep one in poverty. Does it help retrain or relocate??? Nope just enough to get by. Generations have gone by and the families who where getting dole 20-30 years ago are still getting it. Some of it is the individual taking advantage of the system (man do I know a bunch of those), but more of it is the hopelessness it breeds. Many of the small agricultural towns down where I live no longer need laborers due to machinery. Poverty is rampant. Most of the unemployed families have been unemployed for generations with no hope of any future generations finding employment (I know many more of these people than the former.....most of them black due to the historic white land ownership......and the whites ain't selling). These families have been getting dole for decades, but it isn't enough to be useful nor is the system set up to be useful. The system, which was piece-mealed together very quickly, needs to be revamped.

As far as the article is concerned, not only do most conservatives mistake European governments as socialist, most progressives do too. I would hazard to guess that most US citizens do not know how to classify the European economic systems....hell most still believe tUSA is capitalist state. We are no more capitalists than Europe is socialists. We are both a combination of the two. All European nations have more governmental control than tUSA has. That is what scares conservatives and that is what progressives want. Say what you want however you want to say it. If we follow Europe into the land of more governmental control, we, like Europe, will find ourselves in an economic crapstorm. Hell, we are already headed there and many of us are smiling all the way.

Now, please don't think I am making an argument for no governmental regulation, but damn man.....it has gotten more than stupid. Bureaucrats are killing industry in this country. Until the progressives realize that "customer service" jobs is not the nation sustaining job producer they think it is (Starbucks and casino jobs will never equal an industrial job) and allow industry to do its thing, we will never dig our way outta this hole we have created.

Marconius wrote:My problem with the dole is that it doesn't do anything other than keep one in poverty. Does it help retrain or relocate??? Nope just enough to get by. Generations have gone by and the families who where getting dole 20-30 years ago are still getting it. Some of it is the individual taking advantage of the system (man do I know a bunch of those), but more of it is the hopelessness it breeds. Many of the small agricultural towns down where I live no longer need laborers due to machinery. Poverty is rampant. Most of the unemployed families have been unemployed for generations with no hope of any future generations finding employment (I know many more of these people than the former.....most of them black due to the historic white land ownership......and the whites ain't selling). These families have been getting dole for decades, but it isn't enough to be useful nor is the system set up to be useful. The system, which was piece-mealed together very quickly, needs to be revamped.

What do you think would make the long-term welfare systems more effective? Job training? Relocation assistance (to help move to somewhere where there skills are in demand)? Something else? I don't think simply pulling the rug out from under people is going to make most people suddenly find a decent paying job, rather its much more likely to make them homeless (which would only make it harder for them to improve their situation).

As far as the article is concerned, not only do most conservatives mistake European governments as socialist, most progressives do too. I would hazard to guess that most US citizens do not know how to classify the European economic systems....hell most still believe tUSA is capitalist state. We are no more capitalists than Europe is socialists. We are both a combination of the two. All European nations have more governmental control than tUSA has. That is what scares conservatives and that is what progressives want. Say what you want however you want to say it. If we follow Europe into the land of more governmental control, we, like Europe, will find ourselves in an economic crapstorm. Hell, we are already headed there and many of us are smiling all the way.

Now, please don't think I am making an argument for no governmental regulation, but damn man.....it has gotten more than stupid. Bureaucrats are killing industry in this country. Until the progressives realize that "customer service" jobs is not the nation sustaining job producer they think it is (Starbucks and casino jobs will never equal an industrial job) and allow industry to do its thing, we will never dig our way outta this hole we have created.

I agree that it is essential that we revitalize our manufacturing sector (which we have been doing, albeit we've still got a ways to go), its obvious that if you're not producing anything you're economy is eventually going to permanently collapse. The main problem is that China (and many other third world countries for that matter) can produce most of what we can at a fraction of the price due to their 'lax' labor and environmental laws. I don't see too many companies coming back so long as these conditions exist. What do we do about that?

I've heard a lot of noise coming from the GOP about repealing the CAA/CWA/EPA and crushing labor to deflate the cost of production in the US. I don't understand why anyone would support this. Remember the air quality in Beijing during the Olympics (I live in Fresno and I was stunned by the degree of air pollution)? Remember the rivers catching fire in Ohio before the CWA? Is that how people want our country to end up? Do people want to go back to the working conditions of the 1800's, where workplace fatalities where common and injuries sustained due to dangerous work environment would result in homelessness? I know I don't.

The only way I can think of restoring our manufacturing is a combination of coming up with clean ways of producing products (which we've been doing, although we still have problems getting some sectors to implement), by actually buying more expensive American made products over cheap imports, and by promoting labor movements in other countries (like UAW did in S. Korea). I think the government should also have a periodic scientific review of all regulations to a) see if they're still relevant and b) see if they are working (regulations like the ban on chrysotile asbestos are both depriving us of a safe and versatile material and wasting millions of dollars of government funding). These reviews should be conducted by scientists distinguished in the field they're reviewing and should exclude any political influence (you'd be amazed what regulations would be taken away if you just took the politics and the lobbyists out of the equation).

Bryant wrote:
What do you think would make the long-term welfare systems more effective? Job training? Relocation assistance (to help move to somewhere where there skills are in demand)? Something else? I don't think simply pulling the rug out from under people is going to make most people suddenly find a decent paying job, rather its much more likely to make them homeless (which would only make it harder for them to improve their situation).

I agree that it is essential that we revitalize our manufacturing sector (which we have been doing, albeit we've still got a ways to go), its obvious that if you're not producing anything you're economy is eventually going to permanently collapse. The main problem is that China (and many other third world countries for that matter) can produce most of what we can at a fraction of the price due to their 'lax' labor and environmental laws. I don't see too many companies coming back so long as these conditions exist. What do we do about that?

I've heard a lot of noise coming from the GOP about repealing the CAA/CWA/EPA and crushing labor to deflate the cost of production in the US. I don't understand why anyone would support this. Remember the air quality in Beijing during the Olympics (I live in Fresno and I was stunned by the degree of air pollution)? Remember the rivers catching fire in Ohio before the CWA? Is that how people want our country to end up? Do people want to go back to the working conditions of the 1800's, where workplace fatalities where common and injuries sustained due to dangerous work environment would result in homelessness? I know I don't.

The only way I can think of restoring our manufacturing is a combination of coming up with clean ways of producing products (which we've been doing, although we still have problems getting some sectors to implement), by actually buying more expensive American made products over cheap imports, and by promoting labor movements in other countries (like UAW did in S. Korea). I think the government should also have a periodic scientific review of all regulations to a) see if they're still relevant and b) see if they are working (regulations like the ban on chrysotile asbestos are both depriving us of a safe and versatile material and wasting millions of dollars of government funding). These reviews should be conducted by scientists distinguished in the field they're reviewing and should exclude any political influence (you'd be amazed what regulations would be taken away if you just took the politics and the lobbyists out of the equation).

Honestly Bryant, there is quite a bit of hysteria in your post. Something akin to GOP voters and their fears of Obama's socialist state. Same thing just the other side.

I don't believe anyone is talking about pulling the rug from under those who receive benefits. I know I didn't suggest it. I wouldn't mind my tax dollars being used to help retrain, relocate, or even educate the populace. Of course our education system is broken as it stands now. This is one area we can use Europe as a model. We need to look at how the education systems work in the countries with the best results. I'm not against modeling our system after those. We already pay for it. It might as well work. While we are at it, let's use the savings we are bound to reap from revamping our education system and add college to the list. It works in other countries and tuition here has gotten out of hand.

Now onto the hysteria. Nobody is talking about abolishing everything. That's crazy. But there is a problem with a system that makes us tag fugitive emissions on temporary bypass spools. Last week we were forced to vent millions of cubic feet of natural gas into the atmosphere just to meet the requirements on a bypass spool that will only see service for 2 days every 5 years. In its lifetime, it will never allow 1/1000 of what we vented to seep out. The bureaucrat onsite making us do this could not even comprehend what was wrong with what we were doing. There is something outta control with an agency that makes us cut 90% of our greenhouse emissions damn near every 5 years (haven't we gotten to the the point of asinine when we are regulating percentages of percentages). You wanna keep harping on industrial pollution. You know darn well that private citizen pollution outstrips industrial pollution these days. This isn't about pollution, but revenue.....plain and simple.

No we are not talking about abolishing. Unlike 4 years ago, we are talking about real change. Change that is needed before the bureaucrats push us to the point of no return. There has to be a better way, but unless you stop being scared....you'll never know. BTW-the lobbyists do affect regulation greatly. Too bad that is all fringe environmentalists who won't even let us build windmills cause a sparrow might get hit. You know, those same people who make movies like Gasland. Most people still believe that movie is 100% true even though the EPA itself has disproved most the film. Even your own post a few days ago admits that we will run out of fossil fuels before we can affect the planet to something even close to what the climate change alarmists want us to believe. Yet it is those alarmists who have control and we are suffering.

Marconius wrote:

As far as the article is concerned, not only do most conservatives mistake European governments as socialist, most progressives do too. I would hazard to guess that most US citizens do not know how to classify the European economic systems....hell most still believe tUSA is capitalist state. We are no more capitalists than Europe is socialists. We are both a combination of the two.

Ah, you got in there just before me on this one.. :-) There's no such thing as a 100% solcialist country (bar maybe N Korea, and look where it got them), nor a 100% capitalist country. It's a sliding scale, where the different european countries are more towards one end while the US is more towards the other end. And not there that I say "the different european countries" there rather than just "europe" as you guys use. There seems to be a habit of referring to "europe" as a monolithic entity, a superstate under one government/economic system where every country is governed the same and has the same economic rules/system as every other. We have a common currency, a lot of common laws/economic guidelines/rules and a common trade area, but (despite Germany's best efforts so far) we're all separate countries with our own economies and governments. Is like it says in that article:

"Europe is the European Union, a modern entity of 27 democratic countries that, despite many commonalities, greatly differ in history, culture, language, sociology and politics. Europe is difficult to comprehend, but viewing it through a single lens is like calling the United States a Third World nation because there are very poor areas in the South where some people live in shacks or have little access to health care or where some schools are corridors of shame."

All European nations have more governmental control than tUSA has. That is what scares conservatives and that is what progressives want. Say what you want however you want to say it. If we follow Europe into the land of more governmental control, we, like Europe, will find ourselves in an economic crapstorm.

Again, generalizations, each country in Europe has differing levels of governmental control and in each country the reasons for the "economic crapstorm" are different. Greece is the poster-child for fiscal irresponsibility and a lot of that is due to government control/interference (apparently over 50% of people who still have jobs in greece are directly/indirectly working for the government), as over the years various greek governments had a habit of buying the next election by hiring more people into make-work jobs in the civil service. A lot of the economic woes though are because of years of corruption and economic mismanagement, and also a lot to do with the fact that tax dodging is the national pastime - apparently the Greek government only manages to take in about 40% of what it should do in taxes because of tax evasion. Italy's troubles would be due to similar reasons, although not quite to the same extent. On the other hand though, Ireland and Spain are economically in the shit because of unsustainable property bubbles where people went up to their necks in debt to buy houses that are now in some places worth 1/3 of what they were bought for back in 2007/2008. And this wasn't due to money/interference coming from the government, it was from the banks lending irresponsibly without any regulation from the government. And in Ireland's case, another reason we're in the shit is the last government effectively bought the last election they won by a ton of tax cuts in the budget just before it (note: tax cuts not tax hikes as y'all seem to think we all get) - which was all well and goods when the economy was riding high, but when things tanked, there went all the money. And Portugal. well, they're up shit creek because simply they don't really produce anything that anyone in the rest of the world wants to buy, so they can't get money from anywhere.... :-)

And strangely enough, what you guys would call "the most socialist" of the European countries, i.e. the ones with the most government control and social welfare/protection programs, are doing quite well for themselves. France would be the most "socialist" country in Europe, and their economy is ticking along quite well. The next most "socialist" would be Germany and the Scandinavian countries, and they're doing quite well as well - in fact, Germany's unemployment level is at a 20-year low. So, how does that tally with the idea that "Europe's economic woes are due to their socialist governments"?

[quote="Dennis324"]

I also know there is an American tradition of holding up the Old World as an example of all that is wrong and corrupt. There is, unfortunately, a more recent European custom of blaming the United States for all that is perverse and profane.

I thought this was a funny quote. All my like I'd heard that Europeans think we're prudish bible-thumping puritans. Lol!

Nah, depends on what part of america you're talking about - we think the middle & south are prudish bible-thumping puritans and then the rest are godless hedonistic smut-mongers. Is sort of like the red state/blue state divide :-P

For some reason Europeans see American politics as almost a spectator sport.

You mean it isn't? C'mon, look at the republican nominee race, and tell me there isn't a bit of "X-Factor" or "Big Brother" in there (or even "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here").... They're all posturing and playing for the cameras in the hope that the people don't vote them out and they get to stay in the Big Brother House/White House until the end. You might as well rename the primaries "Republican's got Talent" :-P

Yes, we know that all 27 EU members are socialist states.

Have dealt with this one already: as I said, there's no such thing as a "socialist state" or a "capitalist state", there's varying degrees on a sliding scale. So you saying "we know that all 27 EU members are socialist states." is like us over here saying "we know america is full of prudish bible-thumping puritans" - there's a lot of stereotyping going on there.

Marconius wrote:
Now, please don't think I am making an argument for no governmental regulation, but damn man.....it has gotten more than stupid. Bureaucrats are killing industry in this country. Until the progressives realize that "customer service" jobs is not the nation sustaining job producer they think it is (Starbucks and casino jobs will never equal an industrial job) and allow industry to do its thing, we will never dig our way outta this hole we have created.

I agree! Yes, the govt does need to regulate some things..a little. But they've gone too far on some things and it hinders growth and the freedoms of our citizens.

Miles1 wrote:
Nah, depends on what part of america you're talking about - we think the middle & south are prudish bible-thumping puritans and then the rest are godless hedonistic smut-mongers. Is sort of like the red state/blue state divide :-P

Thats pretty much true. Lol! The American South is pretty religious for the most part. God, Guns and...football I guess. Lol! Most here see certain parts of California (San Francisco primarily) and NYC and parts of the north east as being depraved, or just looney toons.

Miles1 wrote:

For some reason Europeans see American politics as almost a spectator sport.

You mean it isn't? C'mon, look at the republican nominee race, and tell me there isn't a bit of "X-Factor" or "Big Brother" in there (or even "I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here").... They're all posturing and playing for the cameras in the hope that the people don't vote them out and they get to stay in the Big Brother House/White House until the end. You might as well rename the primaries "Republican's got Talent" :-P

I hafta admit I love politics! I have watched almost every debate and follow the process pretty closely. I also believe that the GOP has probably done the 1 thing they could have done to screw up their chances of taking the white house. I mean...Obama's record is horrible! He had virtually NO chance of re-election...until these GOP loons began fighting with one another. Now no one is thinking about Obama's record and everyone is thinking about what Mitt or Newt said or did. The GOP is in real danger of becoming divided and hard feelings / bad blood may prevent them from coming together to defeat Obama. I never dreamed the GOP would blunder so badly and it is depressing for me.

Miles1 wrote:
Have dealt with this one already: as I said, there's no such thing as a "socialist state" or a "capitalist state", there's varying degrees on a sliding scale. So you saying "we know that all 27 EU members are socialist states." is like us over here saying "we know america is full of prudish bible-thumping puritans" - there's a lot of stereotyping going on there.

Um...I was citing Bryant's post when I posted that. But honestly, is Greece not in trouble because they became a welfare state? Are not the UK and France and Spain and Germany in danger because they've promised their people more benefits than they can deliver? And its happening here too (though I would submit that we waste a God awful lot of money of non-welfare things here. Pet projects, unnecessary stuff like bridges to nowhere, deodorizers for pig farms, million dollar swimming pools, military projects no one wants, and funding for organizations that SHOULd be standing on their own 2 feet. (Planned Parenthood, PBS, etc). A LOT of govt waste. Plus bailing out private companies. Plus Medicare/medicaid fraud and abuse. A Dept of education that we dont need.

Miles1 wrote:

All European nations have more governmental control than tUSA has. That is what scares conservatives and that is what progressives want. Say what you want however you want to say it. If we follow Europe into the land of more governmental control, we, like Europe, will find ourselves in an economic crapstorm.

Again, generalizations, each country in Europe has differing levels of governmental control and in each country the reasons for the "economic crapstorm" are different. Greece is the poster-child for fiscal irresponsibility and a lot of that is due to government control/interference (apparently over 50% of people who still have jobs in greece are directly/indirectly working for the government), as over the years various greek governments had a habit of buying the next election by hiring more people into make-work jobs in the civil service. A lot of the economic woes though are because of years of corruption and economic mismanagement, and also a lot to do with the fact that tax dodging is the national pastime - apparently the Greek government only manages to take in about 40% of what it should do in taxes because of tax evasion. Italy's troubles would be due to similar reasons, although not quite to the same extent. On the other hand though, Ireland and Spain are economically in the shit because of unsustainable property bubbles where people went up to their necks in debt to buy houses that are now in some places worth 1/3 of what they were bought for back in 2007/2008. And this wasn't due to money/interference coming from the government, it was from the banks lending irresponsibly without any regulation from the government. And in Ireland's case, another reason we're in the shit is the last government effectively bought the last election they won by a ton of tax cuts in the budget just before it (note: tax cuts not tax hikes as y'all seem to think we all get) - which was all well and goods when the economy was riding high, but when things tanked, there went all the money. And Portugal. well, they're up shit creek because simply they don't really produce anything that anyone in the rest of the world wants to buy, so they can't get money from anywhere.... :-)

And strangely enough, what you guys would call "the most socialist" of the European countries, i.e. the ones with the most government control and social welfare/protection programs, are doing quite well for themselves. France would be the most "socialist" country in Europe, and their economy is ticking along quite well. The next most "socialist" would be Germany and the Scandinavian countries, and they're doing quite well as well - in fact, Germany's unemployment level is at a 20-year low. So, how does that tally with the idea that "Europe's economic woes are due to their socialist governments"?

They aren't really generalizations, just laziness on my part. I trust that by now you know that we all know the Europe is not a single entity. Of course whether you want to admit it or not, the creation of the EU does tie you guys into a single entity. A single entity that is in an economic crapstorm because of Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc. Even though countries like Germany are doing well (the most fiscally conservative nation in the EU), their fortunes are tied to the rest. A full breakdown in any of the three mentioned above will start a domino effect.

I also find it funny that you used Greece. The problem seen there is exactly the same problem tUSA is having. Fully 70% of our federal expenditures is dole to the citizens. Only 1/2 our population pays taxes. Public sector jobs are outstripping private sector jobs (for those of you who see nothing wrong with this, remember that a government employee is paid from federal revenue which is directly tied to taxes and since a government worker can't be taxed 100% of income.....it is a guaranteed deficit for the government and that deficit grows as the public sector grows). Our elections are bought by politicians who promise the most benefits. The comparisons go on and on.

Funniest thing is you just kinda bitched about what Greece does, but you invariably defend policies in tUSA that are exactly the same. What up with that???

Marconius wrote:
They aren't really generalizations, just laziness on my part. I trust that by now you know that we all know the Europe is not a single entity. Of course whether you want to admit it or not, the creation of the EU does tie you guys into a single entity. A single entity that is in an economic crapstorm because of Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc. Even though countries like Germany are doing well (the most fiscally conservative nation in the EU), their fortunes are tied to the rest. A full breakdown in any of the three mentioned above will start a domino effect.

Oh, we well know that we're tied into a single entity - a lot more than most of us want to be. The whole "european integration" plan has been hijacked by the politicians, for the benefit of the politicians, the normal people on the street who are most affected by their decisions don't get a say. In nearly every case, any changes to european treaties have been passed by most countries in a parliamentary vote where the politicians make the decisions as opposed to allowing the people to vote to see whether they want it or not. Ireland is pretty much the exception as it's in our constitution that any new laws that requires changes/modifications to the rights granted in the constitution (which is most european treaties) has to go to a referendum of the people. That's why we got to vote on the Lisbon treaty when no-one else did and that's why the government here are trying their hardest to say the new economic rules that the EU are trying to bring in are just addenda to existing rules as opposed to new rules which would require a referendum - because they know that if given a vote on it, we'll vote no, just like if the rest of europe were given a vote, they'd probably vote no as well.

And as for Greece dragging the rest of us down, they should never have been in in the first place. Apparently the Greek government were "misreporting" their economic performance since before they joined the euro zone, and it was only found out in 2009 when they lost the election and the new party got a look at the actual books. If they'd been reporting the correct figures all along they'd never have been let in in the first place as they didn't fit the criteria (which was why they lied through their teeth for so long).

I also find it funny that you used Greece. The problem seen there is exactly the same problem tUSA is having. Fully 70% of our federal expenditures is dole to the citizens. Only 1/2 our population pays taxes. Public sector jobs are outstripping private sector jobs (for those of you who see nothing wrong with this, remember that a government employee is paid from federal revenue which is directly tied to taxes and since a government worker can't be taxed 100% of income.....it is a guaranteed deficit for the government and that deficit grows as the public sector grows). Our elections are bought by politicians who promise the most benefits. The comparisons go on and on.

Um, it's actually not.... :-P Half your population pay taxes, ok, but they pay the taxes they're supposed to so the govt gets the money they are expecting to get. In Greece, income tax evasion means the govt is getting in around 1/3 less than they are supposed to - which coincidentally is around the same level as their ongoing budget deficit: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki The Greek unemployment rate is at 18%, so a lot more than the US. So, less people paying more and more taxes to cover the costs of the unemployed and the tax dodgers. And what is your definition of "dole" there? Looking up some figures:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2012USbt_13bs1n#usgs302

If you're including health care, pensions and education as "dole" as well as welfare, then that's about 60% (a bit less than 70%), otherwise "dole" as just welfare would be 15%.

Oh, and I always thought that "50% of ppl pay no tax" thing was a bit of FUD anyway, so I googled it, and found this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/22/1009489/-Breaking-Down-the-Half-Pay-No-Taxes-Myth

And as for the "Our elections are bought by politicians who promise the most benefits. bit, name a government in any democratic country that didn't get into power by doing that? :-P

Funniest thing is you just kinda bitched about what Greece does, but you invariably defend policies in tUSA that are exactly the same. What up with that???

Um, actually, I don't. Y'all have me down as pro-democrat (as in the democratic party), I'm not really. I think the dems are a bunch of fucking incompetent muppets who keep screwing everything up, but I think that the alternative, as in the Republicans/Conservatives/Tea Party are a lot worse/scarier. And what I defend is the definition of the social safety net and the place of the free market as preached (if not always practised) over here in Europe, which is looked on as "reds-under-the-bed socialism" by a lot of the right in the US.