Nsa scandal

In the wake of the NSA surveillance scandal, Barack Obama's credibility is under scrutiny like never before, writes Peter Foster.

Whether using drones for the 'targeted killing' of alleged terrorists, or data-mining the phone records of everyone in America, Barack Obama has a standard response to those who would question his use of these questionable clandestine programmes: "we welcome a debate".

That debate – which Mr Obama described last month as "the appropriate balance between our need for security and preserving those freedoms that make us who we are" – has exploded into the open following this week's revelations about the extent of National Security Agency surveillance programs.

Mr Obama's offer of debate sounds all very liberal, and reasonable but for his frustrated critics on both the liberal Left and libertarian Right the offer is nothing more than a cover for a president who campaigned as a liberal but on national security has governed as an outright authoritarian.

If Mr Obama really wanted a debate on drones, or the ethics of dragnet-surveillance of the phone records of all Americans, they ask, why has it taken a series of damaging leaks for his administration to even admit the existence of these programmes, let alone openly debate them?

In the centre, Mr Obama has support from both Republicans and Democrats: the leading members of both parties on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Dianne Feinstein and Saxby Chambliss, both backed the NSA's use of phone records. "It's called protecting America," was Sen Feinstein's blunt response.

But for those on the liberal Left and libertarian Right these broad assurances – repeated by Mr Obama again on Friday – that Constitutional rights to privacy are being observed by the administration are ringing increasingly hollow.

The New York Times, usually a staunch defender of Mr Obama, says his administration has "now lost all credibility on this issue" having attacked the Patriot Act while campaigning for the Oval Office and then embracing and even extending its powers once he got there.

In this debate, Mr Obama relies almost entirely on his 'credibility' – whether or not we believe him when he says, as he did, that these programmes have been "scrubbed" and come with "increased safeguards" since the post September 11 Bush-era that spawned them.

Ultimately the US public, not the New York Times, will be the judge of Mr Obama's credibility and he seemed – perhaps rightly – pretty confident of their support yesterday, citing the layers of judicial and congressional oversight that are applied to these programmes.

But after Watergate and Iran Contra, after the dodgy Iraq War dossiers and the extraordinary rendition and CIA torture programs, and even the recent targeting of Conservative groups by the IRS, the US public could be forgiven for not wanting to take Big Brother's platitudes at face value.

Just three months ago, Senator Ron Wyden, a Senate Intelligence Committee member who has campaigned against US government data-mining for years, asked James Clapper, the Director of National of National Intelligence a simple question: "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" "No, sir", came Mr Clapper's reply – which, as we now know, was a flat-out lie. With 'oversight' like that, Mr Obama's credibility is now under scrutiny like never before.

Heh, love how the Times went with the lost all credibility first, then changed it later.

If this is the price to pay for being "civilized", I think I am gonna divorce myself even further from society. Bad thing is, I do that and the jackboots at ATFE are gonna come blast me down. Freedom in this country is so scarce that one cannot just go off and live the way they want anymore. Even if they do nothing wrong, society still tries to bring them back. Just look at Cali, Oregon, Colorado and many other places that are taking property from those who want nothing to do with society. They use energy regs to reel them back in.

Gotta be in the grid so that they can be monitored.

But this ain't just Big O. This is all of government. Dems and Reps are waltzing nicely. They have most of us at each others throats now. Will all of these revelations actually backfire??? Will the people come together??? Can we overcome the left/right, old/young, black/white divides that have been manufactured??? Maybe they knew this was gonna get out and that is why they have been stockpiling ammo and weapons.

I think we will be lulled back to sleep.

Marconius wrote:Heh, love how the Times went with the lost all credibility first, then changed it later.

If this is the price to pay for being "civilized", I think I am gonna divorce myself even further from society. Bad thing is, I do that and the jackboots at ATFE are gonna come blast me down. Freedom in this country is so scarce that one cannot just go off and live the way they want anymore. Even if they do nothing wrong, society still tries to bring them back. Just look at Cali, Oregon, Colorado and many other places that are taking property from those who want nothing to do with society. They use energy regs to reel them back in.

Gotta be in the grid so that they can be monitored.

Source? I know a hand full of people in California who are off the grid (solar power, solar water heating, solar powered well, wood stove/fire place, septic system, etc). The reason more people aren't is because its so damn expensive.

Bryant wrote:

Marconius wrote:Heh, love how the Times went with the lost all credibility first, then changed it later.

If this is the price to pay for being "civilized", I think I am gonna divorce myself even further from society. Bad thing is, I do that and the jackboots at ATFE are gonna come blast me down. Freedom in this country is so scarce that one cannot just go off and live the way they want anymore. Even if they do nothing wrong, society still tries to bring them back. Just look at Cali, Oregon, Colorado and many other places that are taking property from those who want nothing to do with society. They use energy regs to reel them back in.

Gotta be in the grid so that they can be monitored.

Source? I know a hand full of people in California who are off the grid (solar power, solar water heating, solar powered well, wood stove/fire place, septic system, etc). The reason more people aren't is because its so damn expensive.

Linked a few stories right here on this very forum. Nobody seemed interested.

Pun wrote:Just three months ago, Senator Ron Wyden, a Senate Intelligence Committee member who has campaigned against US government data-mining for years, asked James Clapper, the Director of National of National Intelligence a simple question: "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" "No, sir", came Mr Clapper's reply – which, as we now know, was a flat-out lie. With 'oversight' like that, Mr Obama's credibility is now under scrutiny like never before.

Of course its a lie. Some are calling for Clapper to be fired over this. I thought he should have been fired years ago...along with Eric Holder and Tim Geitner.

This NSA thing has apparently become the 'scandal of the week'. Honestly I don't know why you guys are surprised though. I have thought for years that every phone call or internet session was logged by the Feds. In fact I implied as much a few days ago when I wrote about what would happen if we started talking about killing the POTUS. We've been living under 'Big Brother's' scrutiny for a looooooong time. Cameras everywhere, satelites in the sky, drones all over the place, etc. I've known that you can be wiretapped ever since John Gotti was taped discussing murder.

Unscrupulous people in the govt (a redundancy?) can use info they have recorded and stored to blackmail us if they like. They can destroy your life, your livelihood practically everything about you. And 'getting off the grid' by becoming some sort of mountain man wont help either. There are eyes in the sky now and you cant escape it if you stay in this country and live above ground.

And while this latest thing is a massive abuse of the Patriot ACT...its not shocking to me in the least.

Dennis324 wrote:
Unscrupulous people in the govt (a redundancy?)...

I work for the government...

Oops. I coulda put that better. I certainly don't think every individual in govt is unscrupulous. There are some good folks out there. Remember I'm a veteran and used to work for them as did most of my family.

Bryant wrote:

Dennis324 wrote:
Unscrupulous people in the govt (a redundancy?)...

I work for the government...

do you have scruples?

Pun wrote:

Bryant wrote:

Dennis324 wrote:
Unscrupulous people in the govt (a redundancy?)...

I work for the government...

do you have scruples?

Thats classified.

Yeah, we know Bryant.  You've slipped out of Cali and disappeared into the forests of Oregon somewhere occasionally using a cell phone.  Going off the grid are we?  We'll probably be seeing ya on an episode of 'Mountain Man' pretty soon.  Lol!

The NSA knows exactly where he is:rotfl2: